I mean, there are two side of the argument.
Pragmatically, fleeing would save your life.
But ethically, it feels cowardly. (I’m not calling anyone a “coward”, its just how I internally feel about such an act, if I were the one doing it)
Personally, I think either option is valid. Not everyone is cut out for the fight, and especially if you have children, it makes sense for a parent to do what is best. I wouldn’t blame anyone one bit for leaving. I honestly haven’t created an exit plan this far, so I might just end up staying and fighting.
There’s no single correct answer, and as with most issues there are a lot more than two sides. You already implied a third one here - fleeing without being a coward. Question: assuming you aren’t right now a low-paid doctor in a free clinic providing healthcare to people who can’t afford it… do you feel evil for that? Is there any reason to beat yourself up for not doing that? Truth is we aren’t all suited to actively and effectively fight the system, any more than we’re all suited to be doctors or lawyers or athletes. You’re allowed to make life decisions that suit your abilities and personal aspirations without crucifying yourself for not being a saint.
For me it’s a mix of different factors. Is there a place where I am better equipped to fight for what I believe in? Where I can be more effective in creating the world I want to live in? Maybe even a place from which I can more actively advocate and fight for the future I want for the place I just left?
I come from a family of refugees, immigrants and political prisoners. My dad fled his country with his family in the 70s, my mum’s parents did the same in the 50s. Others didn’t leave their homes, some survived, others did not. Every single one of my 19 cousins can call at least two countries their home.
I just left the US 5 weeks ago. I was a trans immigrant with a disabled, trans wife and an EU passport. Yes, part of me wants to fight the continuous fascist power grab happening right now in the US, which has become my home, but I’d be in a very precarious situation where just keeping myself safe enough to fight another day would occupy a lot of my capacities. Getting myself arrested and (best case) deported, wouldn’t really be helpful. Returning to my country of origin allows me to fight the same trends and politics from a significantly more secure position. It allows me to financially support US organizations I believe in, in ways I couldn’t while living there myself. And it’s not like the same people aren’t trying to achieve the same goals with varying success all across Europe.
But when we moved back here, I also decided that this would be it. This is where I am taking my stand and where I will fight for my future with all means necessary. Be that against internal threats or external ones. Not because this place or it’s people is somehow more important to me based on the coincidence of my birth, but because there is no place where I personally have more resources, better support and a stronger starting position. Moving somewhere else to avoid the conflict would leave me with fewer resources and less ability to stand up for my beliefs.
I don’t think there is anything cowardly about fleeing your country when you’re not safe there. Being an immigrant, let alone a refugee is really fucking hard sometimes. Leaving your home and everything and everyone you’ve ever known behind, especially if you do so without knowing if you’ll ever be able to return, can be incredibly traumatic. Starting over in a new place, even under the best circumstances, is scary, exhausting and often deeply isolating. We all have different priorities, strengths, weaknesses, needs and capacities and only you can decide based on those, what the right move is for you. Don’t let someone who hasn’t risked their life while staying tell you you are a coward for leaving or someone who hasn’t ever left their home tell you you’re stupid for staying.
If I could leave I’d be gone. I owe this country nothing.
I’m staying, i’m a white male i’m low on the impact list. But I have citizenship in the UK and I am considering a trip to Scotland to see what the challenge of a relocation entails.
To me, nationality is just a roll of the dice. You shouldn’t have to stay somewhere just because you were born there. You wanna leave? By all means, go have your life’s adventure.
And immigration should be widely supported in terms of higher ethical standards. Countries who make it difficult for people seeking to find a comfortable place to live is more immoral than a person seeking a new home.
I have two multi-racial disabled family members I care for. Even if I could leave the country, they couldn’t - very few nations allow the disabled to immigrate.
I’m here till the fight is done.
This is apparently what the US wants. My family is seriously looking into moving to a different country. We don’t want to be stuck in the new modern nazi party country.
For me this entirely revolves around why why’s and how’s when it comes to how that affects the ethics of it.
With a defense type scenario I’d likely have a hard time looking at myself in the mirror if I just left and essentially allowed my home to be taken.
If we are the aggressor because we stepped in some horrible turd electorally then they chose this and therefore no thanks bye i’ll send a postcard.
While you are staying, your productivity is fueling the economy, and the taxes you pay go to the government you dislike. If you flee, that’s a big economic difference you’re making over the years. I guess if you fight symbolically but non-pragmatically and get arrested, they have to feed you and house you in a prison which will cost a little extra, but compared to your non-productivity that’s just a small bonus. Fleeing also means you get to proactively contribute to competitors and reward them for being a better place to live, which in a way doubles your economic impact. There’s a reason the Berlin wall was built and North Korea executes 3 generations of the families of defectors. People are valuable, and they can’t afford to lose too many of them.
On the other hand, if your threshold for fleeing is too low, there are no competitors to support, because every country has their issues, and some may be at a risk of the same developments as the country you’re fleeing from, making it a pointless exercise. And your loved ones could be essentially hostages that can be used to make you stay.
So it kind of depends, but at least the cowardice argument seems pointless to me. Pragmatic small-scale effectiveness tends to beat symbolic perfectionism at making an impact.
I always hated the “cowardly” argument.
Who gives a flying fuck what others think? Fuck that egotistical bullshit.
Do what you can to survive. That’s more important than worrying about how brave others think you are.
There is an argument to be made that fleeing anytime fascists threaten your democracy can maybe done once in a lifetime. If you happen to flee the American fascist regime to another country that collapse into fascism soon after, do you flee again? Do you finally stay and fight?
People should make these decisions for themselves and their families.
Who gives a flying fuck what others think? Fuck that egotistical bullshit.
Isn’t egoism kinda the opposite of caring about what others think?
I think one has to decide if their country is worth fighting for or not.
I think it is. Not in a nationalistic sense - we’ve done a lot of harms in the world. Maybe more harm than good, even. But there’s still a lot worth saving here. (USA)
If you just walk around and talk to people on the street, we’re still one of the most progressive people around, despite everything. The US is a melting pot, a country of immigrants, and therefore a fierce battleground for ideas and ideologies. Right now the fascists are in power, but that doesn’t make them the majority.
I really do think that if we get past this, we’ve got the “bones” to create something really great.
And that doesn’t even include American culture. Sure, there’s things I don’t like, but there are some really good parts, too.
We’re loud. Gregarious. We’ll strike up conversations with complete strangers. Most Americans are culturally curious, too - we like to try foods from other places, we’re fond of foreign movies and media, and we have a weird fascination with people who speak other languages (even though most of us only speak English).
Many of us see ourselves as citizens of the world, not just our own country. We like the idea of the US being a “global superhero” standing up for democracy and human rights. I know that’s mostly propaganda, and the real history of US intervention is more about maintaining global capitalism. But it doesn’t have to be that way. We could actually help the UN, defend Ukraine, defend Palestine, push for peace. The cultural groundwork is already there, we just need a more democratic system so that the will of the people is actually followed.
If you look at US history, you’ll see a lot of bad. That’s the nature of the two party system. But we have had some really good times, too. We have had leaders like John Quincy Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, and Jimmy Carter who have done a lot of good. And that’s just presidents, we’ve also had activists and leaders fighting for what’s right throughout our whole history.
They didn’t spring up from nowhere. Those people have always been here, and they’re just as “American” as the bad ones. In a sense there are two "America"s. There always have been. And, as in every generation, it’s worth fighting for.
“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” - Carl Schurz:
It’s our civic duty to make our country better.
Some people may need to move because because they aren’t safe here right now.
Some people need to be removed, one way or another.
I’m not American but I totally agree with you. You guys might be at a low point right now, and the flawed system can be demoralising, but yours is still a country to be proud of. Heck, I’m proud of your country for some things.
Thanks!
I also feel like I might as well fight. I’m single and I don’t have a family (or not really - they’re on the other side and pretty fanatical about it). And I have more to lose than others do. More reason to be angry.
I’m actually inspired. We need more of this!
Well said!
a place worth dying for would he nice
RUN! I don’t know why people get so attached to a piece of land, especially when it can cost you your life. They are artificial lines created on the globe. The real question, is where to run.
Leave Grandma she’s dead weight
Well, yeah, this is essentially why I’m not running.
Is that you, Clark?
Now you understand what it means to flee your country. It’s never an easy decision.
I would need more to defend than just a Flag or Land area. I’m not killing myself or others for some line on a map. I.e. would it cause massive suffering for people if the war is lost?
If the United States goes down, you’ll have a corporate oligarchy with the most powerful military in world history.
Just saying.
Oh yea, this time, there wouldn’t be a powerful country to liberate us. 😖
I’ve read a lot of modern fiction set in the 1930s. The authors almost always have a character who can’t leave Europe because they are caring for an elderly parent.
That’s me this time around!
Speak to the author about allowing folks and their parents to immigrate, please
Book review time!
Alan Furst has been writing WW2 era spy books for a while now. “Night Soldiers” is about a young Bulgarian fisherman whose brother is killed by a fascist mob. He gets recruited by the KGB and after training in Moscow he is sent to fight in the Spanish Civil War.
Philip Kerr wrote a series of books about a Berlin private eye. Ex-cop Bernie Gunther is a WW1 veteran who loves Germany and who could have left any time, but stayed on until it was too late.
If the United States goes down it’ll also trigger a global economic disaster as well.
Yes, I don’t see a calm transition in the cards.
Trump could have a heart attack tomorrow
His Veep is just as bad…
Also, I meant a calm transition from America being top dog to another power. Russia and China aren’t going to share power nicely and there are enough countries with nukes to make the whole thing really unstable.
Ya, I don’t think Vance would accomplish much, he definitely doesn’t have the same charisma or followers.
True, things would definitely get interesting if the US wasn’t the top power. You don’t think China and Russia would team up? Or you think thats only because “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”?
I’m not an expert, but I don’t think Putin or anyone who succeeds him is going to be the co-operative type.
Slava Ukrajini
