At least 274 Palestinians were killed and 698 wounded in Israeli strikes on the Nuseirat refugee camp in central Gaza, Gaza’s health ministry said on Sunday. The Israeli military said its forces came under heavy fire during the daytime operation.

The EU’s top diplomat, Josep Borrell, called it a “massacre”, while the UN’s aid chief described in graphic detail scenes of “shredded bodies on the ground”.

“Nuseirat refugee camp is the epicentre of the seismic trauma that civilians in Gaza continue to suffer,” Martin Griffiths said in a post on X, calling for a ceasefire and the release of all hostages.

  • girlfreddy@lemmy.ca
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    7 days ago

    The Israeli military said its forces came under heavy fire during the daytime operation.

    Uh huh. Then why aren’t there almost 1000 Israeli military dead and injured instead of almost 1000 Palestinian dead and injured?

    More lies again. As always.

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      This is a ridiculous take. They didn’t come under heavy fire because they didn’t take heavy losses? It’s their very heavy response to the heavy fire that minimized their losses while taking a high toll on Palestinian civilians and militants.

      Do you think the hostages were unguarded and free to leave at any time because Israel said otherwise?

      • masquenox@lemmy.world
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        Right, right… and Auschwitz wasn’t a death camp - it was a pitched battle between a small group of heroic Nazis and overwhelming Jewish forces. Their clever use of Zyklon-B ensured the Nazi heroes didn’t suffer heavy casualties.

        /s for all the shitlibs that can’t smell all the hasbara stinking up this community.

        • AmidFuror@fedia.io
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          5 days ago

          Hamas fighters are like naked concentration camp victims going into the gas chamber. They just have toy guns. You can tell from the bright orange caps on the barrels.

          /s for the completely delusional

          • masquenox@lemmy.world
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            It’s really sad when hasbara goes off-script - I hope they paid you extra for the attempt, though.

            • AmidFuror@fedia.io
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              Ridiculous take. I never said Israel was right or justified for the level of carnage they caused.

              What is with the script that there are only victims on the Palestinian side? There were no gunmen, only unarmed civilians. The hostages were just visiting friends in Gaza and are demanding to be allowed to return. Who writes this stuff, and why do so many here seem to buy into it?

                • AmidFuror@fedia.io
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                  Who said I was just fine with it? Where are you getting your information? Is it the same source that implied there were Nazi hostages and armed Jewish people in the gas chambers?

      • girlfreddy@lemmy.ca
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        Do you think that Israeli forces are indiscriminately bombing and shooting Palestinian civilians to the tune of almost 1000 killed or injured?

        • AmidFuror@fedia.io
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          Indiscriminately? No. Without adequate or acceptable levels of discrimination? Absolutely.

          That’s not what I was responding to, though. I was responding to your writing that the Israelis lied about coming under heavy fire because they didn’t take heavy losses. The IDF has been known to lie, but that doesn’t make everything they say a lie. And your rationale for saying it was untrue makes no sense.

          • Doom@ttrpg.network
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            It makes everything they say extremely untrustworthy.

            So how many KIA do they have then?

            • SloppyPuppy@lemmy.world
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              1 by the way.

              But I dont understand why is it even a measure. You expected probably best commando unit in the world specifically trained for this type of rescues to get heavy losses?

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                Best in the world? A world that also has, (checks notes) SFOD, SEALs, SAS, and whatever the CIA is cooking these days.

                All of whom would have taken more than one casualty in intense urban fighting. And have done so in the past. Something doesn’t add up here.

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                I expect the “best commando unit” (your propaganda words) to have a lower death toll.

                The fact one of them was killed means the fighting probably wasn’t intense enough to warrant that level of violence.

                Fuck Israel and their indiscriminate killing

          • Chaotic Entropy@feddit.uk
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            Bombing of Nuseirat’s busy market area began soon after the raid started at around 11am (9am BST), turning the neighbourhood into “smoke and flames”, Muhannad Thabet, a 35-year-old resident, told AFP.

            “People were screaming – young and old, women and men,” he said. “Everyone wanted to flee the place, but the bombing was intense and anyone who moved was at risk of being killed due to the heavy bombardment and gunfire.”

            At least one wave of heavy airstrikes was launched to secure the passage of the three men, who had been held together. Argamani was rescued alone, from a separate location.

            Not. Discriminate. Enough.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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        Yes. It’s an unfortunate truth of military operations. But finding the enemy usually requires taking casualties. Not taking casualties and claiming you were under heavy fire gets the dirty eye. Cause nearly a thousand casualties and it demands a war crimes investigation.

  • billwashere@lemmy.world
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    I would feel guilt for the rest of my life if I were one of the rescued hostages. My life is not worth that many dead.

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        Some of the loudest voices in the anti-war movement in Israel have been families of hostages. Considering the track record of their military action, exchanges and peace talks are a far safer way for their family members to be returned, and they are not happy in their loved ones being used as a pretext for a purge of Gaza’s civilian population.

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        I know right? Must be pretty rough knowing every second you could be killed by the rabid dogs of the IDF even though you have supported them all your life with your taxes if not ideologically.

    • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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      But I’m guessing you’re not Israeli, and therefore been indoctrinated since birth to see Palestinians as some sort of wild animals to be culled and kept at bay.

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          Yes pretty shitty isn’t it.

          Do you think it’s an acceptable response to murder 274 other innocent people to save those 4? Are Israeli lives worth more than Palestinian lives to you?

          Of those 274, I wonder how many of those will now want to join Hamas for vengeance against the people that killed their families.

          • CoCo_Goldstein@lemmy.world
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            Hamas could have just let the IDF and the rescued hostages go. Instead, they chose violence… with predictable results.

            • dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de
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              Several deals to release the hostages have been rejected by Israel, like this one .

              If you want to play they could have done that game. Then Israel could not have stolen land for decades and kept people in essentially an open air prison. The vast majority of Palestinians didn’t vote for Hamas, as they were children the last time there was a vote.

              You’re justifying the murder of innocent people as retribution for the murder of innocent people and I find that deplorable. As do the ICC, ICJ, and everyday more and more governments.

              • CoCo_Goldstein@lemmy.world
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                Yes, Israel rejected the deal because they want Hamas destroyed, either as an unconditional surrender by the remaining Hamas fighters or as some kind of ‘Alamo’ last stand by Hamas. If the IDF fails to make further progress, they may reconsider the deal.

                Israel has the land it has as the result of coming out on top in previous wars. Israel won’t give up any land until a genuine peace deal is achieved, which isn’t likely anytime soon, since Hamas explicitly rejects any kind of peace deal with Israel, only cease - fires.

                You are correct that many Gazans were children the last time elections were held in Gaza, but according to opinion polls taken shortly after the October 7th attack, about 70% of Palestinians (both in Gaza and the West Bank) support the attack on Israel and the taking of hostages. You reap what you sow.

                I’m not justifying the murder of anyone. Hamas wants civilian casualties (involuntary martyrs) so as to elicit sympathy from the world.

                Sadly, there will be future civilian casualties in Gaza in the coming weeks and months unless some drastically changes or Hamas surrenders.

                • dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de
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                  Do you really think you can eliminate Hamas? How did it go for the Americans in Afghanistan and the Taliban? You can’t eliminate an ideology.

                  In fact the more innocent people you murder the more you secure the next round of recruits, when people have nothing left to lose they will seek vengeance.

                  Hamas wants civilian casualties.

                  Israel is just sick enough to honour that goal I see.

                  I’ll await the ICC and ICJ outcomes. The fact is Israel is an apartheid state and has the support of the world to commit a genocide.

          • fukhueson@lemmy.world
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            I think it’s appalling that the de facto governing body in that area would not find a way to separate their civilian population from known military objectives, instead of distributing them throughout a refugee camp and hiding there themselves (of those 274, there were combatants). I think Palestinians deserve better.

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              Yes me too.

              Again, I don’t believe that justifies the actions of the IDF? What about you?

              Perhaps you could stop avoiding the question and either call out Israel as well, or say no I think what Israel did by mudering 274 innocent people including 60+ children is acceptable to you.

              We just want some clarity in your stance here. As the consensus here is most people are willing to call out both sides, whereas you seem to only want to focus on one side. Some might say you’re being biased.

              • fukhueson@lemmy.world
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                Some might say you’re whatabouting my initial question. Something shitty Hamas performs does not have to be met with something shitty Israel does. This is the inversion of the “but do you condemn Hamas” schtick.

                As I pointed out, those 274 people involved combatants. If there weren’t combatants or if they were held in a different location than a refugee camp, I would think this operation would have gone very differently.

                https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-06-09-2024-61eb1be9a9d0cf2dbf250cd4a8ed4dbf

                The Israeli military said it had attacked “threats to our forces in the area,” and that a special forces officer was killed in the operation.

                Israel’s military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Saturday the hostages were held in two apartments about 200 meters (219 yards) apart. He said the forces moved in simultaneously on both. Rescuers came under heavy fire as they moved out, including from gunmen firing rocket-propelled grenades, he added, and the military responded with heavy force, including from aircraft.

                To address your whataboutism, I think netanyahu has a tolerance for collateral damage that most of the world has a problem with, and we will see what the repercussions are. If I were a family member who’s loved one was taken, I would think this was a success while mourning the great cost this is coming at. I think it’s grotesque to try to simply weigh lives versus lives in a hostage rescue mission in which one side insists on involving their own civilians in the cross fire.

                My thoughts on whether this was worth it really are insignificant, I’d defer to the hostages’ families and the Palestinians. If I were putting myself in the hostage families shoes, I’d give anything to have them back. If I were a Palestinian, I’d wonder why both sides are willing to treat us so poorly and resent my aggressors (both sides). This isn’t a black and white issue no matter how much you want to reduce it to such.

                And you’re not “both siding” anything, you’re riding the previous comment trying to equate the two by saying Hamas is just as shitty as Israel somehow. And I’m saying that only one side is hiding military objectives and themselves in civilian areas here, which is greatly exacerbating the outcomes.

                • dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de
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                  I’m sorry that you’re making it impossible to have a discussion with.

                  I have numerous times agreed with your assessment of Hamas and only asked you to either agree that the IDF should be held to a similar standard and you just dance around the topic.

                  Reporting the Israeli military or governments responses are meaningless to any of us. We all know they lie, they have been caught lying. The same can be said for Hamas statements.

                  I’ll leave it with the ICC and the ICJ, as again your counter points have been to comment on the innocent Israelis whilst disregarding the innocent Palestinians, which is either due to you purposely being obtuse, or at worst you really don’t care about any innocent Palestinian and you have as much a blood lust as Netanyahu.

                  Either way I will end the _conversation_here and hope that in the future when we look back on this you will know that you were actively supporting monsters, killing innocent people to aid in killing other monsters.

    • SulaymanF@lemmy.world
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      Israel detains many Palestinians including hundreds of minors without charge, on bases right in the middle of civilian towns. Heck, IDF headquarters is right in the middle of a civilian neighborhood in Tel Aviv. Does that mean Tel Aviv is a legitimate military target?

      • fukhueson@lemmy.world
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        Is there an active battle in that area? Or is that a secure area far from conflict? Because it sounds like your contention here is that Palestinian hostages are held in secure bases far from conflict. If I were a hostage and had a choice, I’d prefer to be where there isn’t fighting.

        • SulaymanF@lemmy.world
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          You’re missing the point completely, the Israeli military knowingly puts their bases in civilian areas knowing they are targets by enemy forces, putting the surrounding civilians at risk.

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            Is there a source for that motivation? Knowingly seems unfounded.

            Edit: I may be misunderstand whatever your point is. Are you trying to say that whoever puts military bases near civilians is willfully endangering civilians? I think considerations about threat of attack come into play, and how great that risk is. Let’s also not forget people can choose to live around there or not. I mean, there are plenty of military bases in the US that are not under threat of attack. Is the US trying to endanger it’s civilians? That seems ridiculous. Equally as ridiculous is the idea that Israel chose to put bases where they were going to be attacked in the future.

            • SulaymanF@lemmy.world
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              Are you trying to say that whoever puts military bases near civilians is willfully endangering civilians?

              Yes according to Israeli logic based on what they say about Palestinians and Lebanese. Their behavior is hypocritical.

              I think considerations about threat of attack come into play, and how great that risk is.

              Hamas, Hizbullah, and Iran have all directly targeted these military installations, some in cities, and Israeli PR hollowly complains about how civilians are put in peril.

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                I don’t think you have an understanding of their military choices to make that claim, and I’m kind of confused as to your point so I’m going to cut to the chase. Are you suggesting it’s ok that Hamas does this because Israel has (not equivalently, let’s not get ahead of ourselves and say I agree with you)?

                Edit: because you’re getting fiesty with me in the other comment, I’m not continuing this with you.

    • zbyte64@awful.systems
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      Where else would it be safe to hold the hostages? The rest of the area is getting bombed to oblivion. Most of the hostages are probably under rubble.

    • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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      To maximize civilian casualties, obviously. Hamas profits off the deaths of Palestinian civilians, so why wouldn’t they want civilians to die?

      They’re now trying to come up with a justification to attack the pier Biden installed to prevent aid from getting in. So Palestinians will starve. Then people will be outraged and donate more money to Hamas. There’s no downside for Hamas psychopaths.

      • fukhueson@lemmy.world
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        Yep, and the agencies disseminating these things come from a typical cast of characters (hello Turkey and Iran!). It’s great that more aid is getting to Palestinians.

        https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2024/06/09/3100535/us-built-pier-used-in-israel-s-brutal-nuseirat-camp-attack-in-gaza-report

        US-Built Pier Used in Israel’s Brutal Nuseirat Camp Attack in Gaza: Report

        According to a report by The Cradle online news magazine, the Israeli forces carried out the assault on Saturday, killing hundreds of Palestinians and retrieving four Israeli captives.

        “The troops were then flown out of Gaza via the US-built pier, which had been reinstalled on the coast on Friday after undergoing tens of millions in repairs,” The Cradle stated.

        https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-support-israeli-forces-rescue-hostages-gaza/

        Video circulating online Saturday shows an IDF helicopter taking off from the beach with the U.S. pier in the backdrop. Two U.S. officials told CBS News that the U.S. pier was not used in the IDF operation. It is offshore to assist delivery of humanitarian aid. A U.S. official explained that the helicopter landed south of the facility on a beach but not within the cordoned area of the pier.

        “The pier facility was not used in the operation to rescue hostages today in Gaza. An area south of the facility was used to safely return the hostages to Israel,” a U.S. official said. “Any such claim to the contrary is false. The temporary pier on the coast of Gaza was put in place for one purpose only, to help get more urgently needed lifesaving assistance into Gaza.”

        https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/tasnim-news-agency/

        Analysis / Bias

        Tasnim has strong links with the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) and according to The Guardian the US accuses the IRGC of terror mainly because of its military support for Hezbollah and Hamas, organizations that the US and EU have both designated as terrorist groups.

        Although the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) don’t openly affiliate themselves with any political parties, the Alliance of Builders of Islamic Iran (ABADGARAN) is widely viewed as a political front for the Revolutionary Guards and they are described as “Iran’s neocons”, therefore we rate the political stance of Tasnim as right-wing bias.

        Reporters without Borders has reported Iran as “One of the most oppressive countries” According to the Reporters without Borders 2023 report, Iran ranks 177 out of 180 countries in the World Press Freedom Index.

        The content of headlines and articles use loaded words pertaining to national news such as “Battle against Daesh Still Continuing in Cultural, Ideological Fields: Iran’s Shamkhani” However, they poorly source their articles, heavily quoting without sourcing or providing links to the original source. In general, they promote pro-state propaganda and anti-west conspiracies.

        Failed Fact Checks

        “Shocking evidence of ISIS involvement in the Ukrainian armed forces has emerged.” – False

        Overall, we rate Tasnim News Questionable based on the promotion of state propaganda and conspiracy theories as well as the use of poor sources. (M. Huitsing 12/04/2017) Updated (07/08/2023)

        Edit: people down vote exposing Turkish state media :)

    • girlfreddy@lemmy.ca
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      Where would you prefer they hold them? I mean it’s not like Israel has left them any other choice.

      *** And I’m not saying I agree with taking/holding hostages. I’m simply responding to the question you asked.

      • fukhueson@lemmy.world
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        Maybe in a sectioned off portion of their tunnel system, one where Hamas fighters are defending them without Palestinian civilians in between. I haven’t heard of Palestinians being allowed to camp out in there, so that might be a better place to keep hostages than apartment buildings. They could then keep fighting segmented more easily I would imagine and preserve more civilian lives.

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          Maybe in a sectioned off portion of their tunnel system

          Riiight. After Israel has carpet bombed AND bulldozed much of Gaza.

          Show me on a map where you think the in-tact tunnel systems are located.

          • fukhueson@lemmy.world
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            So you’re saying it isn’t safe for Hamas to be keeping hostages in those areas right? So why keep them there? And they’re underground, some went to Egypt.

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                  No.

                  So you’re saying

                  Instead of reading and understanding what I wrote, you decided on your own interpretation of it … which is an assumption.

  • spyd3r@sh.itjust.works
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    Gaza Health Ministry is not a reliable source, they literally are Hamas, a terrorist organization.

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        Oh yeah, like those 500 people that were killed in a hospital parking lot bombing by the IDF, according to hamas but turned out it was a hamas rocket dud and like 5 people died?

        Oh so reliable…

        • US intelligence estimates between 100-300 deaths.

          It’s also still unclear what caused the explosion. Numerous theories have been put forth but the evidence for nearly all of them was eventually disproven. For example, the missiles fired by Hamas alleged to be a dud were shown to be inconsistent with the timing of the explosion. These rockets didn’t show any misfiring in the video footage we have of the event.

          Similarly, the crater at the site is inconsistent with Israeli munitions. There’s the possibility of an iron dome interception gone wrong, but that too is unlikely.

          One theory I didn’t see discussed much was the idea that it was debris or shrapnel that was launched from the impact zone of nearby Israeli airstrikes. Israel was bombing targets very close to the hospital (as can be seen on the video) and timing-wise it matches better than most other theories. Debris gets launched from a nearby airstrike, lands in the parking lot and ignites several gas tanks there, causing the fireball on the video. This would also explain the lack of a matching missile on the video evidence.

          But that too remains without much supporting evidence. It’s likely that we’ll never find the exact cause.

        • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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          I don’t think I ever saw a report claiming 500 dead. I saw reports claiming it appeared that Israel targeted a hospital, which turned out to be a mistake (in that instance). It’s not like that was the worst they had done even then, so it being held up like it was an outstanding claim is misrepresenting the facts.

    • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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      Kinda hard to get a reliable source when Israel keeps killing reporters.

  • SloppyPuppy@lemmy.world
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    I wonder if there is a number at all for which hammas would say “you know what, holding 100 hostages is just not worth so many dead people of our people, maybe we should just give them back”

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      The IDF flattened Gaza, I’d be surprised if even 20 hostages are alive at this point. Also even if they gave them back I doubt Israel would stop, this rescue was pretty much done to keep their coalition government together, they haven’t been too interested in getting anyone back outside of that.

      • SloppyPuppy@lemmy.world
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        The major party in coalition literally resigned the day of the rescue. There are currently 100 Israeli hostages dead or alive in gaza. Israel will not stop until they find each and every one of them dead or alive. Hammas and Gazans themselves at some point should understand that this whole OCT 7 was a huge mistake. And im saying gazans here because not only hammas was involved in that shit. Those 4 hostages were held in homes of “civilian families” by “civilian people” with children and wifes and shit.

        • FluffyPotato@lemm.ee
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          Yea, didn’t pan out for Netanyahu, doesn’t change the motive for this rescue though. Israel seems far more interested in killing Palestinians than rescue anyone, they even killed a bunch of hostages instead of rescuing them previously.

    • skuzz@discuss.tchncs.de
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      5 days ago

      The hostages are mere pawns leveraged by both military organizations and specifically by the IDF to justify the ongoing genocide. The IDF was killing their own citizens on October 7th alongside Hamas, and the Israeli government themselves issued that report. Israeli blockading of food supplies starves the Israeli hostages alongside the Palestinian civilians.

      Why would Hamas ever give up hostages if this is how Israel acts towards their own captured citizens now?