• Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    6 months ago

    And? So is where I grew up in the southern US. There are states I can’t legally visit anymore if I want to piss in a public restroom. That doesn’t mean I’m okay with bombing most of the hospitals, schools, and homes there and killing tens of thousands of civilians. Anyone OK with that because they’re bigoted in some way has a fucking moral deficiency.

    • cygnus@lemmy.ca
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      6 months ago

      This doesn’t make any sense - if anything it’s backwards. being oppressed doesn’t give anyone a free pass to oppress others. That kind of twisted logic is what Israel uses to get away with murder.

      • Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        6 months ago

        Fun fact, you can’t find anywhere in my comment that says “being oppressed makes oppressing others okay” because that’s not what it says. It says that parents potentially being bigoted isn’t an excuse to blow up their fucking children.

        I’ve yet to have anyone give me a satisfactory explanation for why Palestinian kids deserve to have their limbs blown off or killed for living in an area hostile to LGBT people, but the people I grew up with who are equally hostile to LGBT people don’t deserve to have their kids’ limbs blown off or killed. If the answer is “American children are simply worth more than Palestinian children” then they should just come out and say it, but all I ever get is bleating about the same shit I already addressed.

        • cygnus@lemmy.ca
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          6 months ago

          I’ve yet to have anyone give me a satisfactory explanation for why Palestinian kids deserve to have their limbs blown off or killed for living in an area hostile to LGBT people

          Is anyone actually saying this? What I usually see, like “queers for Palestine” is the opposite — people who excuse the extreme homophobia and misogyny in Islamic countries.

          • Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            6 months ago

            You are in a thread that started with a 1 day old account JAQing off about how transphobic Palestine is on a post about Palestinians campaigning for LGBT rights. If you don’t see that the purpose of that comment is to legitimize violence against Palestine I can’t help you.

            • cygnus@lemmy.ca
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              6 months ago

              If that’s the case then OP is an enormous jackass. That still doesn’t change the fact that queer Palestinians are absolutely being oppressed in their country (or what should be a country) and this is too often swept under the rug.

    • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      Most of the southern US won’t stone you or murder you in broad daylight though. What’s happening in Palestine and Israel is fucked up, but it doesn’t give a pass to the shit they do to the LGTBQ+ and women over there.

      • Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        6 months ago

        Most of the southern US won’t stone you or murder you in broad daylight though.

        Since October 1st 2023, 20 trans people in the US are known to have died from violence. Almost half of them died in the south (as defined by the US census). Are trans people in the south any safer for it happening under cover of night? Pretending for a moment none of them were killed in broad daylight (some were).

        Again, nobody is saying it excuses bigotry. Only a fucking idiot thinks bombing hospitals, schools, and civilians is going to somehow improve the lives of LGBT Palestinians (who everyone somehow neglects to give a shit about in these conversations except as a cudgel against western LGBT people).

        • PugJesus@kbin.social
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          6 months ago

          Since October 1st 2023, 20 trans people in the US are known to have died from violence. Almost half of them died in the south (as defined by the US census). Are trans people in the south any safer for it happening under cover of night?

          Yes, trans people in the US are safer than in Palestine. Jesus Christ.

          https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/415610_WEST-BANK-AND-GAZA-2022-HUMAN-RIGHTS-REPORT.pdf

          spoiler

          Violence against LGBTQI+ Persons: There were reported cases of violence,
          criminalization, or abuse based on sexual orientation and gender identity in the
          West Bank. OHCHR and NGOs reported Hamas security forces in Gaza harassed
          and detained persons due to their sexual orientation or gender identity. Both noted,
          however, that such cases were rarely reported, especially in Gaza, because of
          concerns about protecting the safety those involved.
          OHCHR observers reported PA security officers harassedand sometimes arrested
          individuals due to their sexual orientation or gender identity. LGBTQI+
          individuals were also victims of targeted hate crimes and violent acts. Media
          reported that Ahmed Abu Markhiya, a gay Palestinian, was killed by decapitation
          in Hebron on October 5. Abu Markhiya had been residing in Israel for several
          years under a humanitarian permit reportedly because of death threats he received
          while living in the West Bankand was awaiting approval of an asylum application
          to Canada, according to media reports. Palestinian police made an arrest and
          continued an investigation intothe killing.
          Media reported that lesbians in the West Bank and Gaza concealed their sexual
          orientation due to fear they would be killed by their families.
          The PA failed to protect members of the LGBTQI+ community. After an attack on
          members of the community at the Al Mustawde restaurant earlier in the year, the
          PA did not make any attempts to hold the culprits accountable for their action.
          Discrimination: The PA does not provide protection for or prohibit
          discrimination against the LGBTQI+ community. Homosexuality is widely
          considered to be taboo in areas under PA control and in Gaza.
          Activities associated with the LGBTQI+ community were met with strong
          opposition, and the Palestinian police often acted to prevent these activities. As a
          result of this and other discriminatory conduct, the LGBTQI+ community in the
          West Bank was driven underground and had no vocal representatives or NGOs
          willing to speak in the West Bank, according to observers. Similarly, in Gaza,
          according to observers, there was no visible LGBTQI+ community. Observers
          reported that human rights organizations in Gaza did not monitor and refused to
          address LGBTQ+ issues.
          Availability of Legal Gender Recognition: There is no legal method for
          correcting gender markers on identity documents.
          Involuntary or Coercive Medical or Psychological Practices Specifically
          Targeting LGBTQI+ Individuals: According to media reports, family members
          of LGBTQI+ individuals subjected them to involuntary or coercive medical,
          psychological, and religious practices throughout the West Bank and Gaza. Media
          reported that a Palestinian man confronted his son, age 18, after finding messages
          on the son’s mobile phone between him and another young man suggesting a
          same-sex relationship. The son claimed his father attacked him, beat him, and
          renounced him. The father forced him to meet with a cleric weekly until he
          attempted unsuccessfully to kill himself, according to the report.
          Restrictions of Freedom of Expression, Association, or Peaceful Assembly:
          The PA in cases limited freedom of expression, association, and peaceful
          assembly, although not explicitly based on sexual orientation or identity, and it
          tolerated such actions by vigilantes and armed militias. During the year, in the
          West Bank, peaceful assemblies and gatherings attended by LGBTQI+ individuals
          were disrupted. For example, the Warehouse (event space) in Ramallah was
          closed after a campaign of incitement, hate speech, and assault, which followed a
          June 17 attack on the venue and cancellation of a musical performance because the
          artist was “gay.” According to media reports, the attackers circulated a video on
          social media and, following the violent attack, targeted the performance space with
          an incitement campaign based on a false account of the events and the place.
          According to media, approximately 200,000 social media users participated,
          leaving thousands of hate-filled comments and incitement to murder (see 2.a.,
          Academic Freedom and Cultural Events).

        • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          So 20 from hate crimes? Or just 20 from all violence? Because those who are found out to be LGBTQ+ in the middle east, are killed because they’re LGBTQ+, and often in very violent ways.

          • Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            6 months ago

            Some states don’t even have LGBT hate crime legislation, and until recently (like, last year) multiple southern states didn’t. There’s no federal requirement for states to report the number of LGBT hate crimes that happen yearly. So until that change there is no concise way of answering both how many trans people died from general violence and how many from hate crimes. But anyone who thinks the answer to that is zero isn’t paying attention.

            I’m also not sure that the trans people murdered in the US get any solace from ‘only’ being shot or stabbed, or that the distinction helps anyone LGBT in the US or Palestine who is hate crimed.

              • Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                6 months ago

                They obviously aren’t the same. Anyone denying that the south is dangerous for LGBT people (trans people particularly) is just fucking stupid.

                • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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                  6 months ago

                  By your logic the entire USA is dangerous to LGBT people, as you said it yourself half happened in the south, but acting like people in the south are hunted down and arrested or murdered is bullshit.

                  • Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                    6 months ago

                    If it’s legal for you to piss in public restrooms in all 50 states then I’m really not interested in how hysterical you think someone who can’t do that is being.

                    Btw, here’s a story about a trans man who was arrested after being assaulted for following the owner’s instructions on which bathroom to use.

                    If you have no idea what kind of issues trans people in the US face on the regular it’s okay to just say that.

      • footoro@sh.itjust.works
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        6 months ago

        I think everyone even Arabs agree that the majority of people is homophobic/transphobic. Fine.

        But please state a source for people in Palestine being stoned, like at all, no matter the reason. What kind of place do you think Palestine is?

        • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          https://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=81112&page=1

          You’re joking right? There are literal laws all over the middle east in Islamic run nations about stoning people, just type stoning and middle east(ps this doesnt exclude Israel, they’ve arrested their own who have done it) into Google and you’re going to get a ton of results. Why is this shocking? Sharia law has it as a form of punishment.

          In recent times, stoning has been a legal or customary punishment in Iran, United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen, northern Nigeria, Afghanistan, Brunei, and tribal parts of Pakistan, including northwest Kurram Valley and the northwest Khwezai-Baezai region though it is rarely carried out.[1][2][3][4] In some of these countries, including Afghanistan, it has been carried out extrajudicially by militants, tribal leaders, and others.[2] In some other countries, including Nigeria and Pakistan, although stoning is a legal form of punishment, it has never been legally carried out. Stoning is condemned by human rights organizations.

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning#

              • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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                6 months ago

                There is a huge fucking difference between a hate crime and stoning as legal punishment.

                • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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                  6 months ago

                  Uhh…who said it wasn’t? You or someone asked for an article on stoning in Palestine… I provided said article and now goal posts are being moved around.

                  • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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                    6 months ago

                    I’m not that person, so I won’t argue their point.

                    I am making a different point, that has to do with Palestine as a whole, not about individual criminals.

              • onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                6 months ago

                They weren’t stoned for being lgbtq though is the point. Israel is also homophobic and transphobic. It’s a common tactic by the IDF to kidnap and record gay people having sex so that they can blackmail them into becoming informants. I guess all of Israel all Jewish people are homophobic then? That is the logic you use. The logic of a racist.

                • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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                  6 months ago

                  You didnt ask for that, you asked for anyone being stoned. Way to move the goal post. You have also now brought in more whatsboutism of what Israels military does, they’re shit to, it doesn’t magically make the middle east and Islam a friend to LGBT persons.

          • footoro@sh.itjust.works
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            6 months ago

            Not joking at all. Don’t show me a Wikipedia article, show me a newspaper article about someone being stoned in Palestine.

            • TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works
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              6 months ago

              Hamas doesn’t really do stonings, so you appear to be correct. It looks like just about every execution committed by Hamas involved a firing squad, most often performed in public.

              Hamas does torture and execute people for suspicion of being gay, though, even their own commanders.

              Free Palestine. Fuck the IDF and Hamas.

              • footoro@sh.itjust.works
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                6 months ago

                Yeah that was my point. It’s not that Arab societies are like super progressive and Palestinian people are suddenly angels just because they are victims of genocide. It’s just that doing stonings is an archaic practice that doesn’t exist in the Levant. Like people might be very conservative and live in authoritarian societies, but they still live in the 21st century and they don’t want that shit.

                That being said Hamas absolutely sucks, they are violent, corrupt dictators and while they currently are the biggest armed resistance against the ongoing colonization they shouldn’t have any place in a free Palestine.

              • footoro@sh.itjust.works
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                6 months ago

                So we’re talking about stoning people that’s allegedly happening due to violations of sharia law and you bring up a story from 2001 so probably during the second intifada about an incident involving illegal Israeli settlers.

                I wanted to assume that you maybe just don’t know better but this is just bad faith from your side.

                • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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                  6 months ago

                  O I’m sorry that it’s a story from 2001 does that magically make it false now? Goal posts really keep getting pushed further and further…

                  • footoro@sh.itjust.works
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                    6 months ago

                    Keep trying. This has nothing to do with stoning people as a punishment based on religious laws, for example for being trans. Which you claimed would be a common practice in Palestine. An unresolved incident involving illegal Israeli settlers during the second intifada inside the occupied West Bank has nothing to do with that. You’re the one moving goalposts, more like spreading false information and you know it.