I just don’t see how the far right can rise or how they can win. The odds are so stacked against them. Is this something to actually be worried about ?
The reason I ask this is because I am a leftist and if your using lemmy I am going to assume you are to. I feel like this “the far right is rising” narrative is an attempt by the neo liberal establishment to trick class focused leftist into supporting the status quo as a bulwark against a far right rise.
OP is either a bot or a right-wing troll. I suspected as much based on the language used in the post, but I replied in good faith. They claim to be “leftist” but then say that nothing bad happened under Trump or Bolsonaro or as a result of Brexit. OP is most likely intending to lull progressives into complacency by spreading “the right isn’t a threat” BS so we feel less urgency to vote.
Corroborating evidence is that their entire post history is this thread and an AI image with racist overtones.
ETA they’re probably a bot based on how quickly they’re replying to comments and the length of those replies.
I was about to say the same thing. I’m not reading all that shit. This is bot generated right wing propaganda.
What have I said that can even remotely be interpreted as right wing ?
I hate Trump, because I hate America as a whole and all of it’s leaders. Trump was just another American leader nothing special. He robs his people to fund a genocidal military that only exist to prop up the imperial core for the bourgeois.
Also yes bad stuff has happened under Brexit mainly related to economy, but everyone say that immigration would be massively restricted. I saw some saying there would be genocides or large scale oppression of ethnic minorities in the UK. Not only has that not happened an ethnic minority currently rules the country.
I admit maybe Bolsenaro was worst then I gave him credit for. I am not knowledgeable about Brazilian politics but Lula DeSilva seems to be doing great for his people and it doesn’t sound like Lula has to play a lot of damage control for Bolsenaro’s actions.
Also what is racist about the image I posted ? It’s just a kid who happens to be black running from Alligators. I mention the kid’s race nowhere if he wasn’t black nothing would change about the image.
Troll harder, comrade. You’re too obvious.
I am not trolling, the point of a troll is to make people sad or angry. I fail to see how my post could possibly be interpreted as having that effect. What have I posted that could be interpreted as inflammatory ?
If that is my goal, why am I doing it on fucking Lemmy ? A platform that is not used by many people.
I explained my goal in the post and I will restate it here.
I want my fellow leftist to not fall for the tricks of the bourgeois, I don’t want our movement to get derailed focusing on a far right bogyman instead of focusing on the clear and present threat of the parasitic capitalists class destroying our planet and keeping us down.
So you’re a tankie troll.
ETA this guy is either a bot or a troll. Don’t bother engaging.
I said the same thing back in 2008. After Obama won I assumed the right-wing nutjobs in the States were just getting louder because they knew they were dying off.
Then we got Brexit, and Trump, and Bolsonaro. The far right kept winning one major vote after another.
The fascist right will always sound ridiculous to anyone with a brain and not an agenda. That doesn’t mean they aren’t a huge threat. Progressives can never become complacent.
I keep having people tell me about far right wins, I have one response
But what did that do though ?
You mentioned Trump, But what did that do though ? He lost in 2020 and didn’t become a dictator like everyone said he would, he didn’t deport anybody he didn’t build a wall he didn’t start any new wars.Nothing changed.
you mentioned Brexit, But what did that do though ? Immigration to the UK (which was the big issue that brexit supporters cared about) has only increased and the UK still follows the same EUCHR laws that stop them from turning away asylum seekers or deporting people to unsafe countries.
Bolsenaro ? But what did that do though ? He lost and has only made the Brazilian left more powerful.
I will rattle off some more examples of far right wins
The election of Giorgi Meloni in Italy, But what did that do though ? Immigration has only gone up and nothing has changed.
Gert Wilders In the Netherlands, But what did that do though ? Same story as Meloni immigration hasn’t changed, LGBT+ hasn’t changed nothing has changed.
The reason why nothing changed circles back to the point of this post. The reason nothing changed is because the elite capitalist don’t want anything to change. They don’t for example immigration to be reduced because it means less workers and less consumers. Trump,Bolsenaro,Wilders and Meloni don’t matter it is the Bourgeois that matter. They have all the power. Getting worked up over these “far right victories” is needless anguish as they mea nothing
I assume this is probably not in good faith, but answering anyway for a reminder to others
From just trump and the US alone:
There was the child sepeation policy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy
His appointments to the Supreme Court has led to abortion being banned in 14 different states across the US
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2023/nov/10/state-abortion-laws-us
Gender affirming care is now much restricted in a number of US states with constant threats at larger bans of all care
And so much more
In the UK, the right wing government has helped o underfund the NHS and make service worse
There’s a lot of damage that can be done. Just because it may not be as visible to one person, doesn’t mean it does not exist
I can’t answer all of your questions, but with Trump I can answer them: One amazing example is he helped overturn roe v wade. He was able to assign 3 of the 9 justices of the supreme Court which allowed them to basically help make abortion illegal in some states.
He caused the longest government shutdown in US history for what small amount of money, that had already been offered by Democrats.
He incited a the first real insurrection in US history (even the south didnt try to take over the US, just suceed from the union)
There’s are just some examples of the problems cuased by Trump…
Brexit has also caused extensive harm to the UK but I’ll let others expand on that
“Remember Y2K and all the chaos that was supposed to happen? Computer nerds scared everybody into updating everything and make it ‘y2k proof’ or whatever and then it was a whole nothing burger.”
“Remember the hole in the ozone layer? Scientists made us ban CFC’s like we were going to die of skin cancer any day now and then nothing bad at all happened.”
The smarter people on the far right want you to underestimate them and write them off a harmless weirdos. While you’re paying attention to all their wacky hijinks they are quietly trying to strip away your rights one by one so that you won’t even realize what’s happened until it’s already too late.
That goes against what every political movement in history did, which was to appear as strong and powerful as possible. This gives you more leverage in negotiations and brings people to your side through bandwagoning.
didn’t the republicans in America fucking hire actors to fill their crowds at CPAC ?
It’s a two pronged attack.
It has always been a two pronged attack.
The rich assholes who want to fuck everyone over can’t just come out and say it, they need a Face to rile up the crowds, but that Face is a problem. The Face can turn on the rich fucks. Well, to an extent. They’re a useful charismatic fool, and possibly a danger to the rich, but mostly a danger to everyone else.
Anyway, the solution is to stand next to the fool king, and pass him “advice”. Like a list of judges to appoint. “Don’t think about it, we vetted these guys, and they love you”.
Then there’s the congressmen. “Don’t have time to write a bill? Well, we saved you the trouble. It even does some of the shit you’ve been ranting about, but mostly it makes us richer”.
And that’s how it goes. People like Leonard Leo, Peter Thiel, Joel Kaplan. They’re the brains.
They also funnel a shit-load of money into pushing their twisted ideologies.
There are dangers of the far right that don’t require them to attain complete governmental control. They can move the Overton window. They can push the center right further from center. They can increase violence against minorities. They can put pressure on specific agenda items, either by obstructing government function, or by agreeing to cooperate on more popular agenda items in exchange.
None of these are hypothetical. This is just what’s already happening.
I don’t think that will ever happen at least not in America and countries in America’s sphere of influence.
A lot of far right ideas are just to unpopular. Going back on feminism and having women be submissive ? That will never happen, LGBT rights ? 25% of Gen Z is queer they will never move that overtone window. Race ? White people are on the verge of extinction, they are losing bad. I think white people kill themselves more then they kill any minority. If they try anything rash they will just be hunted to extinction or kill themselves in shame.
I don’t think that will ever happen at least not in America and countries in America’s sphere of influence.
it literally already is
A lot of far right ideas are just to unpopular. Going back on feminism and having women be submissive ? That will never happen,
so the removal of bodily autonomy and forced birth is, what exactly?
LGBT rights ? 25% of Gen Z is queer they will never move that overtone window.
25% of gen z is still only a tiny drop in the voting population, not to mention that being queer unfortunately doesn’t automatically make you a leftist
Race ? White people are on the verge of extinction, they are losing bad. I think white people kill themselves more then they kill any minority. If they try anything rash they will just be hunted to extinction or kill themselves in shame.
WOW
I was giving you a lot of benefit of the doubt assuming good faith, but nah, fuck this “great replacement” bullshit, you’ve completely given yourself away there.
I’m done here.
so the removal of bodily autonomy and forced birth is, what exactly?
not something the rich support, basically every big corporation supports abortion
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/companies-offering-abortion-travel-benefits-us-workers-2022-06-24/
I bring up Gen Z because they are the future of society, even their small vote was enough to turn the tide for Biden in 2020 and for the dems in 2022, the older generations that don’t support queer rights will be dead soon
Lastly you accusing me of supporting the great replacement is a low blow, I am Turkish for your information and I am not to fond of white people. How was anything I said wrong ? The white population is declining is objectively true and I think that’s a good thing. White people do kill themselves a lot again that is just true white males have the highest suicide. You appeal to history a lot, what happens when white people try to oppose their will on POCs ? If never ends well. Look at Hati,Zimbabwe,South Africa and Africa more broadly,Ataturk kicking the whites out of Turkey and the Russo Japanese war.
White people are on the verge of extinction, they are losing bad.
Dude, fuck off you racist troll.
Go and check who’s currently second in line to the US presidency then tell me the far right aren’t rising in power. Thinking it’s a false narrative to trick leftists is the best way to reverse Uno yourself into fascist totalitarianism I can think of.
Sounds like something one of my great grandparents would have said 5 to 10 years before being sent to a concentration camp.
My grandfathers were probably still saying it while already marching eastwards in a Wehrmacht uniform.
Capitalist structures are hierarchical and thus more amenable to fascism than equitable socialist structures, so the idea that “supporting the status quo” will help against a far right rise is laughable.
I disagree a little, a lot of what the far right advocates for are contradicted by the current capitalist structure that rules the world.
Tradition for one, a lot of traditions are simply incompatible with capitalism, for example you are technically not supposed to have your business open on Sundays if you are a Christian, but Christians have stopped doing this because if they just didn’t open on one day of the week they would get completed by the secular business that did.
Having a woman stay home and support the family, having women not work makes no sense from the perspective of the capitalist class
Having children to begin with in a capitalist system having kids makes no sense, they cost so much money to raise and you won’t be able to see them because you have to work for your rich overlords
the far right wants to purge LGBT+ people, LGBT+ are over represented among the capitalist class and even the ones who are not LGBT+ still support the movement just look at pride month
Tradition for one, a lot of traditions are simply incompatible with capitalism, for example you are technically not supposed to have your business open on Sundays if you are a Christian, but Christians have stopped doing this because if they just didn’t open on one day of the week they would get completed by the secular business that did.
which proves that their values are those of capitalism, not of “tradition”
Having a woman stay home and support the family, having women not work makes no sense from the perspective of the capitalist class
if population continues to decline, it absolutely would make sense to capitalists to keep women at home as incubators
Having children to begin with in a capitalist system having kids makes no sense, they cost so much money to raise and you won’t be able to see them because you have to work for your rich overlords
which is why it might not make sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to the capitalists, who need more workers, and don’t care how much time with their parents they get as toddlers, and who control the media and the education systems, which they use to socialise everyone from birth with the idea of having “the perfect family” with “2.5 kids”, but also don’t provide good sex education, nor family planning services, nor a society that is welcoming to alternative choices, like not having kids, or adopting older kids.
the far right wants to purge LGBT+ people, LGBT+ are over represented among the capitalist class
what the actual fuck?
and even the ones who are not LGBT+ still support the movement just look at pride month
pride month (or the aspect of it you’re alluding to) is the perfect example of capitalists willing to do anything for a profit. The idea that capitalism favours queer people is beyond laughable.
So no, there is no contradiction because they have no core value other than making money at all cost.
pride month (or the aspect of it you’re alluding to) is the perfect example of capitalists willing to do anything for a profit. The idea that capitalism favors queer people is beyond laughable.
I see people say this a lot. You never see billionaires pander to white people even though they are the majority of America, you never see big brands pander to Christians even though there are more Christians then LGBT people in America.
Also about population decline posing a threat for the capitalist future profits. One word
Immigration
Instead of trying to convince people to have kids you could easier bring people over on Visas. Kids take at least 18 years to become workers meanwhile an immigrant comes read to work. It would also mean you pay less taxes for schools.
You seem to imply the rich are trying to cut people’s access to contraception l do not think this is true.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/companies-offering-abortion-travel-benefits-us-workers-2022-06-24/
Look at all the companies that cover the cost of (or at least the travel cost of) abortions. Basically every big company is on the list.
You never see billionaires pander to white people even though they are the majority of America
a minute ago it was
White people are on the verge of extinction, they are losing bad.
you really need more practice, your trolling skills are piss poor, bigot.
Are you saying I am a bigot against white people ? What group was I being bigoted against ?
Also White people being the majority of America is (for now) the truth. It’s just a fact no less disputable then vaccines don’t cause autism.
They won’t be for much longer but once again that is just the truth.
an attempt by the neo liberal establishment to trick class focused leftist into supporting the status quo as a bulwark against a far right rise.
that’s exactly how fascism rises (and is very much rising, globally) to power:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
The establishment doesn’t want fascism, at least not fascism as it was implemented in Germany,Italy and Spain. They want to maintain the status quo so they can continue extracting surplus value from the workers.
IIRC Jeff Bezos said that he bought the neolib Washington post for the soul purpose of opposing Trump and the rise of the far right.
There are just to many contradictions between what the fascist want and what the capitalist want.
I named a few above but I will name another. Immigration, fascist oppose immigration a long racial lines/lines of national identity and tradition. The Rich support immigration because it means more workers so they lower wages and it means more consumers to buy their product. From a capitalist perspective there are no downsides to immigration.
The establishment doesn’t want fascism, at least not fascism as it was implemented in Germany,Italy and Spain. They want to maintain the status quo so they can continue extracting surplus value from the workers.
fascism doesn’t contradict that
IIRC Jeff Bezos said that he bought the neolib Washington post for the soul purpose of opposing Trump and the rise of the far right.
lmmfao, surely the multi hundred billionaire wouldn’t lie about his motives???
There are just to many contradictions between what the fascist want and what the capitalist want.
there are none
I named a few above but I will name another. Immigration, fascist oppose immigration a long racial lines/lines of national identity and tradition. The Rich support immigration because it means more workers so they lower wages and it means more consumers to buy their product. From a capitalist perspective there are no downsides to immigration.
of course there are lol, it’s called slave labour, and it’s what fascism provides - the ultimate, end stage of capitalism.
of course there are lol, it’s called slave labour, and it’s what fascism provides - the ultimate, end stage of capitalism.
You didn’t address my core point about the contradictions between liberalism and capitalism. You also didn’t address why the rich would be against immigration or why fascist would support it.
Yes, yes I did, in several linked articles which you’ve clearly not clicked through to because you’re here in bad faith.
go fuck yourself.
why would the rich oppose immigration ?
What does slave labor have to do with my point that fascist oppose immigration while the bourgeois supports it ?
Concern troll with fresh account. Nothing to see here.
What do you define as them “winning”? You can say that out and open neo-nazis will never make up a majority of the voting populace. But they don’t need to be a majority to do real damage, and they shouldn’t be ignored just because they’re under 51%.
Look at everything that’s been happening already. Trump. Bolsonaro. Brexit. The repeal of Roe v. Wade. The erosion of LGBT rights. These are real issues, and they will not go away if we close our eyes.
And outside of just legislation they pass, consider a more human perspective. Each and every impressionable person that gets suckered into their ideology, that they teach to hate, that’s a tragedy already. We need to do everything we can to save people from hate.
I have explained more as to why their “wins” were not cause for concern in other post, I have even addressed Trump, Bolsenaro and Brexit specifically
I also talk about the reproductive rights of women more broadly in other post.
All of these issues absolutely are cause for concern. The more I read you trying to pretend they’re not, the more I’m beginning to wonder if you’re just a fash in disguise.
Get blocked fashie bot
Ok if I am a bot, someone had to program me. Why was I programed ? for what purpose ? ’
Also this is absurd on it’s face as no bot would post the way I do.
Absolutely
You can’t possibly be that stupid.
Fake.
Easy block.
If you look at history, authoritarian governments have repeatedly emerged over and over from strongman movements.
Is this particular rise likely to lead to that? It’s a definite maybe. Better not to risk it.
I think “far right” is rather fringe group of people and most accused of belonging to it actually don’t. I also don’t know what you mean by “rise”
However, in the US and in many other countires too it’s generally the conservatives that are having children and more often than not kids adopt the politics of their parents so yeah I’d say it’s a relatively safe assumption that right-wingers will outnumber the left in not too distant future.
