• Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works
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      8 months ago

      Does he believe in the state using force to kill and brutally suppress its citizens to enforce their rule and limit democratic freedoms?

      Because you can be a leftist and not support that shit by holding positive views of the Soviet Union or China. We don’t call those people tankies, we call tankies tankies.

      • hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net
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        8 months ago

        PSL is ML, so yeah, unfortunately.

        Edit: let’s talk for a minute about some really important history here. Leninists have ridden anarchists to victory then turned around and murdered them, starting with Lenin himself. Makhnovists saved the Red Army from being destroyed by the white. The Soviet Revolution was originally an anarchist one until it was betrayed by the Bolsheviks, who murdered anarchists from the beginning.

        Even Trotskyists need to be held accountable for this, since Trotsky himself was responsible for crushing dissent at Kronostat.

        Aaron Bushnell was an anarchist. He was an anarchist service member. MLs honoring his sacrifice need to face the fact that their ideological ancestors did murder people like him for their own resistence.

        MLs try to take over anarchist actions even today. PSL has tried to co-opt actions that my anarchist comrades have organized. They are overwhelmingly ineffective, which is why the feed so much on anarchist energy and appropriate anarchist actions all the time. Tankies use anarchists to get attention for themselves and dispose of us when we become inconvenient.

        And if you can’t honestly acknowledge the dissonance between the history of appropriation and oppression of people who you openly acknowledge are on the same side as you, then you don’t really want a more free and equitable world, you just want your cult to wear the boots that are on everyone else’s neck.

        So yeah, fuck tankies. This is a great action. Don’t let them appropriate it.

      • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Because you can be a leftist and not support that shit by holding positive views of the Soviet Union or China.

        To paraphrase Muhammad Ali: “I ain’t got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No Viet Cong ever called me the N-word”.

        • Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works
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          8 months ago

          Hitler never tried to kill me based on my ethnicity but I’ve still got a problem with him.

          You can and should oppose fascism and authoritarianism without being the targeted victim.

          • knightly the Sneptaur@pawb.social
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            8 months ago

            Ali was making a statement about his refusal to be sent to fight in Vietnam. That soldiers are individuals, and that they have more in common with each other than they do with their own leadership.

            I mean, yeah fascism and its leadership must be opposed in all its forms, but the average German soldier in WW2 wasn’t any more brainwashed than the average American soldier is now.

            The armies of the enemy are not our enemy. They are distant parts of ourselves, ruled over by wicked masters just as we are.

                • Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works
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                  8 months ago

                  Me: Because you can be a leftist and not support that shit by holding positive views of the Soviet Union or China.

                  Them: To paraphrase Muhammad Ali: “I ain’t got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No Viet Cong ever called me the N-word”.

                  You: It’s a warning, that in fighting fascism we must always remember that the enemy is not the people to avoid becoming the oppressor.

                  That seems like a very unrelated tangent you’ve gone on here?

                  Unless you’re trying to argue that the people who push for and actively want those oppressive regimes are not the enemy? Which is so utterly ridiculous that I don’t think that’s your point.

                  • knightly the Sneptaur@pawb.social
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                    8 months ago

                    That seems like a very unrelated tangent you’ve gone on here?

                    Don’t worry about it, my ADHD-ass brain always has trouble explaining these intuitive leaps.

                    Unless you’re trying to argue that the people who push for and actively want those oppressive regimes are not the enemy? Which is so utterly ridiculous that I don’t think that’s your point.

                    Actually, that’s precisely it.

                    They might not be innocent, being complicit or even active participants in the oppression, but they are also victims of the regime as well. Those people are not the enemy, but the enemy’s base of support.

                    Fascism builds its base with false promises of prosperity and blames its own ills on outsiders. Fighting them directly risks validating the regime’s propaganda and making martyrs to their cause, but subverting that base erodes the regime’s support and builds your own at the same time. It’s easy because fascists love to broadcast their crimes and any prospefity that can be found never falls far from the top of the hierarchy.

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            Hitler never tried to kill me

            We didn’t enter the war with Germany until after Pearl Harbor. So, it was less Hitler than Tojo that ultimately provoked our entry into the war.

            You can and should oppose fascism and authoritarianism

            It should be noted that FDR opposed fascism in Europe by sending enormous amounts of military aid to a certain Russian Communist by the name of Joseph Stalin. Quite a few of his peers argued the opposite. It was Stalin who was the true menace and Hitler who should have been our natural ally.

            So, who should we have opposed? The Fascist or the Authoritarian?

        • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          Are you saying you have no issue with China because you aren’t a Uigher?

          Leftism should be accompanied by the belief that no matter where someone is born or with what traits, they should be able to live a happy and comfy life. No government should be exempt from persecuting people. A Tankie says “well, hold on” if it’s a government they like.

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            Leftism should be accompanied by the belief that no matter where someone is born or with what traits, they should be able to live a happy and comfy life.

            You’re not describing “Leftism”. You’re describing “Consumerism”. The leftist struggle for a free and equitable society does not guarantee happiness or comfort. It guarantees a worker’s right to the fruits of one’s labor.

            And sending troops abroad to butcher civilians and burn down their homes does nothing to accomplish either.

            A Tankie says “well, hold on”

            Again, it is absolutely crazy to see to “tankie” conflated with “please stop bombing people”.

            • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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              8 months ago

              How the hell did you get “a Tankie says to stop bombing people” from “a Tankie excuses genocides if they like the country”?

              My whole point is that there’s certain countries where they don’t say “please stop bombing people” and make excuses defending the country instead.

              It’s very telling however that your thought of people being able to live happily and freely no matter where they’re born or with what traits is “consumerism”.

              • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                8 months ago

                “a Tankie excuses genocides if they like the country”

                Fascists constantly telling me that we need to bomb the village in order to save it, and if you don’t support napalming My Lai, you’re with the Terrorists.

                My whole point is that there’s certain countries where they don’t say “please stop bombing people”

                Name. That. Country.

                It’s very telling however that your thought of people being able to live happily and freely no matter where they’re born or with what traits is “consumerism”.

                Its Utopian to believe people simply stop having problems under a particular ideological system. Capitalists and Communists alike need to deal with droughts and pandemics and supply chain failures and climate change.

                Neither system guarantees people happiness and freedom.

                But recognizing ecological limits means you’re a “tankie”? While devouring seed corn because it makes you happy is… what? Real Leftism?

                • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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                  8 months ago

                  I get the feeling we are terribly misunderstanding each other and talking past the other. I think I see your point about there being problems in any system, but I think it behooves us to strive for the ideal, even if it’s unattainable.

                  In general, Russia tends to be the country that tankies make excuses for. Instead of condemning the actual country invading Ukraine and bombing civilians, they’ll say it’s Ukraine’s fault for wanting to join NATO, for instance.

                  If you disagree with that thinking, then good. You aren’t a Tankie. There were a number of “leftist” thinkers at the outset of the war who blamed the West and NATO for Russia invading, instead of Russia. And some still insist the bloodshed has to stop by Ukraine suing for peace, instead of Russia leaving.

                  Fascists constantly telling me that we need to bomb the village in order to save it, and if you don’t support napalming My Lai, you’re with the Terrorists.

                  In Ukraine war, Tankies suggest Russia is just defending itself and its “spheres of influence”. It’s not dissimilar from your example. If you don’t understand Russia’s “very reasonable” response of bombing Ukraine to prevent it from joining NATO, you’re called a Western imperialist, unironically.

                  The other main example is with China and the Uighurs. Detaining a cultural group in concentration camps and forcibly reeducating them and erasing their culture is typically seen as genocide, but with China you’ll hear Tankies make excuses that it’s to stop terrorism and that is all Western propaganda and there’s nothing suspicious going on at all.

                  Once again, if that isn’t you, you aren’t a Tankie. I’d argue tankies actually have a concerning natural alliance with fascists.

                  Moderates are eager to paint leftists as Tankies when that isn’t the case, I agree with you there. That doesn’t mean the term has no meaning nor utility however.

                  • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                    8 months ago

                    In general, Russia tends to be the country that tankies make excuses for.

                    I doubt one in ten leftists (much less westerners) could tell you about the 1956 Hungarian Revolution in any kind of detail. So I’m skeptical of the claim that you’ve got a bunch of rock-ribbed old school Stalin-Shouldn’t-Have-Stopped-At-Berlin Soviets running around.

                    Some of the fiercest leftist criticism I’ve seen has been aimed squarely at Gorbachev and Yeltsin, for selling the Soviet States down the river during Perestroika. I’ve gotten an earful of criticism over the Russian occupation of Afghanistan, I’ve seen all sorts of complaints about their poor environmental record, and plenty of leftists bemoaning the vestigial state of the modern Russian Communist Party in the face of United Russia.

                    If there’s a bunch of DSA folks or Brooklyn comedians or LA Nurses Union members or Corbynite / Trudeauite Labor Organizers insisting “Russia Good Aktuly!”, I’m not seeing it.

                    But I do see a lot of folks going to the old Parenti quote:

                    “During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.”

                    I see leftists dismissing the cynical attacks on civil rights leaders, anti-colonial organizers, and opponents of western financialization/privatization as “useful idiots” of some evil foreign hand. And I see them labeled as “tankies” because they refuse to correlate BLM or climate activism or anti-war protests or anti-surveillance libertarians as “pawns Russia”.

                    If you disagree with that thinking, then good. You aren’t a Tankie.

                    The term is bullshit. If you look at the folks who advocate driving tanks across Europe, you’ll find them in Anthony Blinken’s State Department and Olaf Scholz’s Defense Ministry as quickly as Rupert Murdoch’s news department. The only question is which direction those tanks should be driving.

                    I don’t see any kind of shortage of pro-war advocates. I don’t see any shortage of military spending. I don’t see any shortage of tanks.

                    What I see a vast deficit in is anti-war advocates at any level of power. And anyone who voices an objection to Ukrainian forced conscription or the next $50B spent on new tank shells or another year trading artillery fire over a mile of mud in the Donbas… these people are called Tankies. The folks paying for the tanks and cheering the tanks and egging on another year of tanks firing on one another, these… aren’t.

                    In Ukraine war, Tankies suggest Russia is just defending itself

                    Are you referencing anyone in particular, or are you just describing Cable News Republicans as “Tankies”? I’m hard pressed to name anyone outside Elon Musk or Tucker Carlson who was “Pro-Russia”

                    All I see are a bunch of people with heads in their hands, who see the decade of civil war in Ukraine and the next three years of war with Russia as a phenomenal and catastrophic lose for the region. I see people watching the death figures roll in - 10,000 new dead Russians + 8,000 new dead Ukrainians + another 100,000 new refugees fleeing their respective borders - and wailing “STOP! Sue for peace! End this madness!”

                    And these people get called “Tankies”, too. They’re pro-Russia because they don’t see an inevitable Ukrainian victory. They’re pro-Russian because they don’t see thousands of dead infantrymen as some kind of Win For The West. They’re pro-Russian because they don’t want to chime in and cheer when some comedian says “Putin Is A Big Gay Who Is Definitely Going To Die Soon of Stupid Person Disease”.

                    Moderates are eager to paint leftists as Tankies when that isn’t the case, I agree with you there. That doesn’t mean the term has no meaning nor utility however.

                    There’s only one tankie I recognize, and its

      • wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
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        8 months ago

        Everyone here who isn’t a center right Biden supporter is essentially a tankie according to the majority of users here.

        Anarchists who show a modicum of respect for MLs and don’t go along with the center right party line? TANKIES!

        Communists of all sorts who might find themselves somewhere in the middle of Y axis? TANKIES!

        Left unity in face of the center right? TANKIES!

        You don’t vote Biden? China or Russian psyop and a tankie!

          • masquenox@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            The majority of users on Lemmy are leftists

            Liberals aren’t leftists. You don’t have much excuse for not knowing the difference by now.

              • masquenox@lemmy.world
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                8 months ago

                The majority here are not liberals.

                The majority of people here are liberals - not leftists.

                • Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works
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                  8 months ago

                  Strongly disagree.

                  The majority of people here aren’t tankie fucks, but they’re certainly leftists.

                  • masquenox@lemmy.world
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                    8 months ago

                    You talk like someone who only learnt what the term tankie means a week ago.

                    Do you even know what it is that makes liberals right-wing?

          • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            The majority of users on Lemmy are leftists liberals, so I doubt that immensely.

            ftfy. At least on lemmy.world. And no being a liberal doesn’t make you a leftist, nor even necessarily left of center, depending on what brand of liberalism you subscribe to.

          • wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
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            8 months ago

            Give me a fucking break, no self respecting leftist would give Biden their vote. The vast majority here is liberals cosplaying as leftists to undermine actual left unity.

            • Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works
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              8 months ago

              “Everyone to the south of a ML is a liberal”. Ironic.

              America has no choice, they don’t live in a democracy. They get to pick Trump or Biden, you can whinge that they should all grab their guns and revolt, but they can’t even get enough people together to peacefully change things so that isn’t happening any time soon.

              You can be an accelerationist and hope that Trump winning will create class consciousness, but you’re paying for that with the lives of christo-fash victims.

              What’s your solution mate?

                  • wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
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                    8 months ago

                    Stop supporting war hawks and capitalists. Do grass root activism, vote third party and do work to get the people around you to do the same. It’s not fucking rocket science.

                    Guess what, one of the only politicians who could have beat Trump back in 2016 usually runs as an independent. He took a chance with Dems and look where that got us.

                    You’re literally posting on an article about someone who does just that. Honoring someone who gave his life to do just that.

                    Get lost with your our way or the high way bullshit. You’re disrespectful to the memory of Aaron Bushnell.

                • SinningStromgald@lemmy.world
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                  8 months ago

                  I don’t feel like rewording this to better fit the conversation so:

                  https://lemmy.world/comment/7927657

                  TL;DR Third party is not viable in the current US voting system no matter how hard you fantasize about it. And not voting for the non wannabe dictator so you can stroke off over how you “showed it to the system” is even dumber or you actually like dictators.

            • EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              8 months ago

              Left unity in face of the center right? TANKIES!

              You’re right. As the saying goes, “Vote for who you love in the primaries and against who you can’t stand in the general election.” After all, the enemy of my enemy is-

              Give me a fucking break, no self respecting leftist would give Biden their vote.

              …the bitter irony.

              Let’s face it, the facts are that every 4 years, we have 3-ish years to push for grassroots efforts and electing local officials for things like 3rd party candidates and ranked choice voting, a chance to make a statement by voting for who you love (or a vote against who you hate if you live in a state that let’s independents vote in either primary) that no politician is going to take notice of in the primaries, and then we have to vote against the guy we don’t want in office come the general election.

              The Republicans won’t allow us to do otherwise, and for one simple reason: they toe the party line, regardless. They don’t care who is on the ballot. It could be Trump, Bush, Putin, or Stalin himself, risen from the dead to destroy capitalism once and for all. So long as they have that R next to their name, that’s who they’ll vote for. As an old boss of mine once said, and my grandfather before him, both with the same incredulous look as if they couldn’t understand why somebody would possibly ask them who they were voting for: “I’m a Republican. I vote for the nominee.”

              Leftists get all riled up once every 4 years, like a swarm of cicadas screaming about 3rd party candidates when it comes time to vote for the President, and then go back to sleep. And the Dems love it. Because Republicans vote down the party line all year long, meaning that when those 4 years come up again, there’s no other choice against the continuing slide further and further right than voting for their corporate sponsored candidate of choice. We need to claw seats from both Dems and Republicans for any meaningful change (preferably from Republicans). Otherwise, weakening the Dems only furthers the goals of the Republicans.

              You wanna make a difference? Vote local, vote often, and help other people get to the polls. There’s a reason that election days aren’t holidays, and any real change isn’t going to start with those lifetime appointees whose best interests are in opposing any meaningful change in the system. It’s going to start in your town and state elections.

                • EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                  8 months ago

                  Appreciate it. My dad was involved in town politics when I was a kid, so I got to see plenty of how policy is shaped by the crusty old Republicans who can show up at every town meeting to spew nonsense and incorrect information and vote on every decision in town because they’re retired and don’t have to worry about work. And then I spent many years training kids at a job and got to see firsthand how those policies drove those kids to get out of town as soon as they’re able. And I understood how they felt because I felt the exact same way.

                  Remembering how the old ladies used to call the people who wanted to get a new school built “the enemy” still gets my blood boiling.

    • GBU_28@lemm.ee
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      8 months ago

      I only call people tankies if they support tankie shit like killing everyone with a college degree, or glasses

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      Its genuinely crazy to see how quickly Americans have adopted the idea that “Tankie” is the best way to describe Anti-war advocates, while the Blue Lives Matter crowd are in favor of peaceful coexistence.

    • blargerer@kbin.social
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      8 months ago

      I don’t know much about the guy but, as someone thats perfectly willing to call tankies tankies, he seems like the opposite of one. Just don’t do tankie shit and you wont get called one.