The content creators freedom to express directly opposes the hosts freedom of affiliation. Not that I want to defend either company but they do have the right to say what is and is not allowed in their spaces using the same idea of “fundamental human rights”.
It is either that or we have to agree that “fundamental human rights” cannot exist because one groups rights can override the other on social whim.
Every other creator on the planet has to abide by these rules if they want to remain on these platforms and every creator has an option not to use them.
When does a platform cross the line between “group of people making money hosting other peoples content” to “fake corporate ‘people’”? Does everyone working in any corporation automatically lose their rights?
When it incorporates, obviously. That’s what incorporation is! You’re trading the rights you get as a full-liability general partnership for the privileges of limited liability and separated tax treatment.
It is the epitome of entitlement to demand those privileges without giving society anything back in return.
The EU protects the free speech rights of users from abuse from platforms, and US conservatives have argued that platforms should have similar regulations.
Is there a reason that you glossed over my main point being that one groups right to free expression is imposing on the other groups right to freely associate?
As I said above, either everyone has their rights respected at all times or there is no such thing as fundamental human rights. Just because you do not like the group exercising their rights doesn’t mean they do not have them.
The content creators are free to express themselves on a platform that allows the content, and the hosts are free to decide what they allow. Nothing is stopping any one of these people from self hosting a website and posting whatever they want.
In the EU, that is not the case. If Facebook decided that people are allowed to talk about Macron, but not about LePen, it would violate users’ right to protected political speech. And any moderation decisions decided by that policy could be challenged by regulators.
Providing a social media platform is a business in the EU, it is not protected speech. Platforms have a lot of leeway to moderate communities, but they are not allowed to infringe on human rights in their moderation.
Here is the Council of Europe’s opinion on it:
Your Internet service provider and your provider of online content and services have corporate responsibilities to respect your human rights and provide mechanisms to respond to your claims. You should be aware, however, that online service providers, such as social networks, may restrict certain types of content and behaviour due to their content policies. You should be informed of possible restrictions so that you are able to take an informed decision as to whether to use the service or not. This includes specific information on what the online service provider considers as illegal or inappropriate content and behaviour when using the service and how it is dealt with by the provider.
Here is the EU’s moderation database that they use to regulate online moderation, they have recorded over 11 billion moderation decisions made in the EU in the last 6 months.
The topic is “Indigenous Brazilian Content creators” not being allowed to post non sexual nudity on American owned platforms. It is not what the EU is doing with human rights.
Do try to keep up. This is the second time you have used my comment to soap box off topic non sense, and the second time I am calling you out for it.
Bull fucking shit. Your argument was that corporate “rights” trump human rights, and I went and showed you that other cultures disagree with you on that. Stop turning everything into a debate.
Bull fucking shit. Your argument was that corporate “rights” trump human rights, and I went and showed you that other cultures disagree with you on that. Stop turning everything into a debate.
Not at all what I said, and I am in no way arguing with you because you have no point to make relevant to the topic.
The content creators freedom to express directly opposes the hosts freedom of affiliation. Not that I want to defend either company but they do have the right to say what is and is not allowed in their spaces using the same idea of “fundamental human rights”.
It is either that or we have to agree that “fundamental human rights” cannot exist because one groups rights can override the other on social whim.
Every other creator on the planet has to abide by these rules if they want to remain on these platforms and every creator has an option not to use them.
Here is what I said. You should learn to read before you try to write.
Frankly, I was mostly mouthing off here, not trying to voice deep moral reasoning but I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I’m actually not sure that fundamental human rights do exist—at least not in all circumstances. As you point out, they sometimes conflict and we need to adjudicate whose rights are more fundamental in a given situation.
You have a good point and I generally agree that there does exist a tension here. I think where it breaks down is when a platform becomes so large and dominant that there isn’t really any significant alternative. I think morally, this shifts my reasoning away from just a collection of individuals deciding what they want on their platform towards an almost state-like entity. And with that power dynamic I am much more skeptical of their unilateral authority to control what is or isn’t posted on their platform. Given the size and structure of YouTube, it makes more sense to think of it as space that belongs to and should be managed by the community and with respect for individual rights of expression. And I feel strongly that non-sexual nudity is not only not harmful, but that it is very harmful to repress, as we see in this specific example.
The issue is that when companies are able to get large enough to control the virtual town square, them censoring people has the same impact as the government censoring people. And especially given the fact that they’re all companies held by literally millions of people, who don’t get input into the speech allowed on the platform, allowing them the “freedom” to restrict speech how they see fit doesn’t make sense.
You don’t have the option to not use major platforms and have your voice heard, because they’ve done the work to make it virtually impossible.
Every consumer has input in to what a company does by simply choosing to support the company or not. Companies tend to move really quick to fix shit when they see profit margins start to dip.
No one is being forced to use either platform, and it is the platforms choice who they allow to use it. Don’t like their rules, go else where.
Kind of like Lemmy instances. Don’t like the rules, go somewhere you can agree with them.
Unless they want it to be possible that people see their content.
Let’s assume that if you share a YouTube video, you get a 1% click through to people watching the video. If you share the same video the same way, but hosted on your own platform, it will drop to .0001%. It’s not viable. People will watch YouTube. They won’t watch on random other platforms.
Unless they want it to be possible that people see their content.
That’s what the airwaves are for.
But no, really, Youtube is neither that open nor that essential that the people not there are Somehow Invisible on the Internet. And even if that was somehow the case, you actually don’t need to upload video, you can just use a normal youtube account to comment and link your content wherever relevant “conversations” lead there.
And no, there’s no possibility whatsoever that linking to content in the comments will result in any traffic whatsoever, even if you didn’t get banned immediately. That’s not how people use the internet.
Network effect is a massive problem and platforms who leverage network effect need to be held to different standards.
I will just go and do a quick search to find plenty of alternative hosting platforms and choose to use one of them to immediately distribute video content and nullify your only point.
Youtube only maintains a monopoly if people choose to use the platform. Alternatives exist. Self hosting exists. Doing something more productive than posting “content” online exists. Lets not forget about the film industry.
Having a website people can theoretically watch your video on isn’t distribution.
People watching your video is distribution.
There’s nowhere but YouTube where you can host video and have actual meaningful viewership be a possibility. YouTube has an absolute, complete dominance of the video space.
I don’t think freedoms are opposed here. Creators have the freedom to express themselves that freedom just doesn’t force anyone to give them a platform. They can use their own or another one that’s willing to host their content, which there are many, and then if they, creators or platform, are legally punished it would be a violation of their freedom of expression.
The content creators freedom to express directly opposes the hosts freedom of affiliation. Not that I want to defend either company but they do have the right to say what is and is not allowed in their spaces using the same idea of “fundamental human rights”.
It is either that or we have to agree that “fundamental human rights” cannot exist because one groups rights can override the other on social whim.
Every other creator on the planet has to abide by these rules if they want to remain on these platforms and every creator has an option not to use them.
Real people’s rights trump fake corporate “people’s” rights every single time.
When does a platform cross the line between “group of people making money hosting other peoples content” to “fake corporate ‘people’”? Does everyone working in any corporation automatically lose their rights?
When it incorporates, obviously. That’s what incorporation is! You’re trading the rights you get as a full-liability general partnership for the privileges of limited liability and separated tax treatment.
It is the epitome of entitlement to demand those privileges without giving society anything back in return.
I asked two questions.
The EU protects the free speech rights of users from abuse from platforms, and US conservatives have argued that platforms should have similar regulations.
https://www.coe.int/en/web/freedom-expression/freedom-of-expression-and-information
While what you’re describing is the current legal reality in the US, This argument very much isn’t settled.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/22356339/free-speech-facebook-twitter-big-tech-first-amendment
Is there a reason that you glossed over my main point being that one groups right to free expression is imposing on the other groups right to freely associate?
As I said above, either everyone has their rights respected at all times or there is no such thing as fundamental human rights. Just because you do not like the group exercising their rights doesn’t mean they do not have them.
The content creators are free to express themselves on a platform that allows the content, and the hosts are free to decide what they allow. Nothing is stopping any one of these people from self hosting a website and posting whatever they want.
In the EU, that is not the case. If Facebook decided that people are allowed to talk about Macron, but not about LePen, it would violate users’ right to protected political speech. And any moderation decisions decided by that policy could be challenged by regulators.
Providing a social media platform is a business in the EU, it is not protected speech. Platforms have a lot of leeway to moderate communities, but they are not allowed to infringe on human rights in their moderation.
Here is the Council of Europe’s opinion on it:
Here is the EU’s moderation database that they use to regulate online moderation, they have recorded over 11 billion moderation decisions made in the EU in the last 6 months.
https://transparency.dsa.ec.europa.eu/
The topic is “Indigenous Brazilian Content creators” not being allowed to post non sexual nudity on American owned platforms. It is not what the EU is doing with human rights.
Do try to keep up. This is the second time you have used my comment to soap box off topic non sense, and the second time I am calling you out for it.
Bull fucking shit. Your argument was that corporate “rights” trump human rights, and I went and showed you that other cultures disagree with you on that. Stop turning everything into a debate.
Not at all what I said, and I am in no way arguing with you because you have no point to make relevant to the topic.
Here is what I said. You should learn to read before you try to write.
deleted by creator
Frankly, I was mostly mouthing off here, not trying to voice deep moral reasoning but I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I’m actually not sure that fundamental human rights do exist—at least not in all circumstances. As you point out, they sometimes conflict and we need to adjudicate whose rights are more fundamental in a given situation.
You have a good point and I generally agree that there does exist a tension here. I think where it breaks down is when a platform becomes so large and dominant that there isn’t really any significant alternative. I think morally, this shifts my reasoning away from just a collection of individuals deciding what they want on their platform towards an almost state-like entity. And with that power dynamic I am much more skeptical of their unilateral authority to control what is or isn’t posted on their platform. Given the size and structure of YouTube, it makes more sense to think of it as space that belongs to and should be managed by the community and with respect for individual rights of expression. And I feel strongly that non-sexual nudity is not only not harmful, but that it is very harmful to repress, as we see in this specific example.
The issue is that when companies are able to get large enough to control the virtual town square, them censoring people has the same impact as the government censoring people. And especially given the fact that they’re all companies held by literally millions of people, who don’t get input into the speech allowed on the platform, allowing them the “freedom” to restrict speech how they see fit doesn’t make sense.
You don’t have the option to not use major platforms and have your voice heard, because they’ve done the work to make it virtually impossible.
Every consumer has input in to what a company does by simply choosing to support the company or not. Companies tend to move really quick to fix shit when they see profit margins start to dip.
No one is being forced to use either platform, and it is the platforms choice who they allow to use it. Don’t like their rules, go else where.
Kind of like Lemmy instances. Don’t like the rules, go somewhere you can agree with them.
Your choices are “follow YouTube’s rules” or “don’t distribute video content”.
YouTube has a monopoly.
There’s like [checks notes] 2 more video platforms on the internet!
No reason these people can’t post on those, or host their own.
Unless they want it to be possible that people see their content.
Let’s assume that if you share a YouTube video, you get a 1% click through to people watching the video. If you share the same video the same way, but hosted on your own platform, it will drop to .0001%. It’s not viable. People will watch YouTube. They won’t watch on random other platforms.
That’s what the airwaves are for.
But no, really, Youtube is neither that open nor that essential that the people not there are Somehow Invisible on the Internet. And even if that was somehow the case, you actually don’t need to upload video, you can just use a normal youtube account to comment and link your content wherever relevant “conversations” lead there.
Yes, it absolutely is that dominant.
And no, there’s no possibility whatsoever that linking to content in the comments will result in any traffic whatsoever, even if you didn’t get banned immediately. That’s not how people use the internet.
Network effect is a massive problem and platforms who leverage network effect need to be held to different standards.
Then do so. Come on. It’s 2024.
Until something is seriously done, being able to at least go elsewhere has to be and is the rational option that is left.
Compelling argument.
I will just go and do a quick search to find plenty of alternative hosting platforms and choose to use one of them to immediately distribute video content and nullify your only point.
Youtube only maintains a monopoly if people choose to use the platform. Alternatives exist. Self hosting exists. Doing something more productive than posting “content” online exists. Lets not forget about the film industry.
Having a website people can theoretically watch your video on isn’t distribution.
People watching your video is distribution.
There’s nowhere but YouTube where you can host video and have actual meaningful viewership be a possibility. YouTube has an absolute, complete dominance of the video space.
I don’t think freedoms are opposed here. Creators have the freedom to express themselves that freedom just doesn’t force anyone to give them a platform. They can use their own or another one that’s willing to host their content, which there are many, and then if they, creators or platform, are legally punished it would be a violation of their freedom of expression.