• FlowVoid@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I think Netanyahu is choosing his words carefully to get the ceasefire through (which after all he proposed) without alienating the hard(er) right wing.

    Here’s what he actually said:

    Israel’s conditions for ending the war have not changed: The destruction of Hamas military and governing capabilities, the freeing of all hostages and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel

    Israel will continue to insist these conditions are met before a permanent ceasefire is put in place. The notion that Israel will agree to a permanent ceasefire before these conditions are fulfilled is a non-starter

    The thing is that all of those conditions, except for the hostages, are pretty subjective. Biden said in his speech that the capabilities of Hamas and the threat to Israel have already been eliminated. Nothing stops Netanyahu from declaring the same tomorrow.

    That leaves the hostages. But in the three phase plan, freeing the hostages comes before the permanent ceasefire. So again, the peace plan is not inconsistent with his latest statements. I think he is simply using a harder posture to help win support.

    • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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      5 months ago

      and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel

      The only way that can be ensured is by driving out or killing every Palestinian in Gaza.

      But this isn’t genocide I’m told.

      • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Not necessarily. If Israel no longer feels threatened by Gaza then for all practical purposes it no longer poses a threat. Which might even be the case right now.

        • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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          5 months ago

          And how would they no longer feel threatened without driving out or killing every Palestinian in Gaza?

          • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Whether or not Israel feels threatened is up to Israel. Biden said Hamas is not capable of another 10/7, which might be sufficient to meet that condition.

            • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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              5 months ago

              They’re still firing rockets into Israel. I would suggest that means that Israel would consider them to be a threat. They’re not doing it from inside of Gaza either.

              And every baby the IDF kills creates more Hamas sympathizers and people willing to commit violence for Hamas.

              • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                You might consider rockets a threat, but that doesn’t mean the Israeli government considers them a threat.

                In other words, there some in Israel who likely believe the military capabilities of Hamas have already been destroyed (like Gantz), and some who likely believe they haven’t (like Ben Gvir). So the government could officially take either position.

                Netanyahu just wants to remain in power. He still supports the deal which suggests he is in the first group and is counting on the support of people in the first group. That might include opposition leader Yair Lapid, who promised to support Netanyahu if Ben Gvir leaves the governing coalition.

                  • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
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                    5 months ago

                    Sure, but they could declare that partly because of the Iron Dome, the threat has been neutralized.

        • pearsaltchocolatebar@discuss.online
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          5 months ago

          This has nothing to do with Israel feeling threatened.

          Israel wants Palestine for themselves, and they’ll kill everyone there to get it.

    • barsoap@lemm.ee
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      5 months ago

      Biden said in his speech that the capabilities of Hamas and the threat to Israel have already been eliminated.

      Thing is Hamas is not just its armed wing. It’s also a political party, with that comes a government apparatus (as in bureaucrats), and it’s also a charity. It is, after all, a Muslim Brotherhood offshoot and, well, ask the Egyptians how hard it is to root out the Muslim Brotherhood.

      If with “total destruction of Hamas’ capabilities” they mean the whole thing then that’s just another way to say that they want to keep on going forever. Biden OTOH simply seems to have referred to military capability. Israel, also the more moderate factions, will likely insist on at least dismantling the government apparatus and TBH plenty of Palestinians feel the same. Things are murky because of the war but Hamas rule was not exactly popular, charity nonwithstanding.

      • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        and, well, ask the Egyptians how hard it is to root out the Muslim Brotherhood.

        You mean the Muslim Brotherhood whose presidential candidate got democratically elected by Egypt? The President who then got couped with the help of the US to install the Sisi regime that is worse than the Mubarak regime, which sparked the Arab spring in the first place?

        • barsoap@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          The Egyptian military doesn’t need US aid to launch a coup. Sure the military will have made sure that the US continues to consider Egypt as an ally but that’s about it. Politically both are taking potshots at each other.

          Mursi was democratically elected, yes. Quoting Wikipedia:

          Within a short period, serious public opposition developed to President Morsi. In late November 2012, he issued a temporary constitutional declaration granting himself the power to legislate without judicial oversight or review of his acts, on the grounds that he needed to “protect” the nation from the Mubarak-era power structure. He also put a draft constitution to a referendum that opponents complained was “an Islamist coup”. These issues — and concerns over the prosecutions of journalists, the unleashing of pro-Brotherhood gangs on nonviolent demonstrators; the continuation of military trials; and new laws that permitted detention without judicial review for up to 30 days, and impunity given to Islamist radical attacks on Christians and other minorities — brought hundreds of thousands of protesters to the streets starting in November 2012. During Morsi’s year-long rule there were 9,000 protests and strikes.

          Is Sisi a champion of democracy? No. But also he was elected, and he’s legitimately popular. Morsi rode to power on an illusion about Brotherhood politics, once they unveiled their true colours Egyptians quickly decided that they’d rather have secular than religious authoritarians in power.

      • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        If with “total destruction of Hamas’ capabilities” they mean

        That’s just my paraphrase.

        The actual wording used by Israel is “destruction of the military and governing capabilities of Hamas”. Both of which arguably have already been destroyed.

    • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
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      5 months ago

      He has conveniently ensured that all the hostages can never be freed because a lot of them are have been killed by the IDF already. Probably a bunch of their bodies are buried under so much rubble they’ll never be found in our lifetimes.

      • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        The proposal specifies return of “remaining hostages who are alive”.