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  • Refurbished Refurbisher@lemmy.sdf.org
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    9 months ago

    100 years is quite a long time to maintain social demcracy.

    While the right is using immigration to gain political power, I think if there wasn’t increased immigration, they would find some other way of gaining power. Idk which came first, but a lot of right wing politicians globally are taking notes from the US right (mainly Donald Trump), and the move towards fascism is gaining ground in many places right now, unfortunately. I can only comment on the US, really, but I believe in the US that this is successful due to people having economic hardship, which leads them to have more extreme idiologies (either socialism or fascism).

    I hope Denmark will be able to maintain their social democracy and show that fascism is not the way.

    Unfortunately, according to Marxist theory, social democracy will inevitably devolve back into straight capitalism, or worse. I hope Denmark can prove it wrong.

    • Buffalox@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      100 years is quite a long time to maintain social demcracy.

      Yes it is, but it’s not a Social democratic government all the time, but even when it’s not, the policies of the right are leaning a lot towards it. Our right govern way more like the left than the Democrats of USA. We also once had a communist party, even with representation in parliament. But it collapsed with the Soviet Union.

      a lot of right wing politicians globally are taking notes from the US right (mainly Donald Trump)

      Yes, USA remains a huge influence here too, despite how obviously and incredibly stupid their policies are. We have a couple right wing parties that still at times take inspiration from Republicans. But luckily it’s impossible to actually use their policies here. For instance Gay marriage and LGBT rights are not in question here, and neither is the Scandinavian welfare model we build on. It’s sad that USA inspired democracy in Europe, but they haven’t been able to modernize it to better standards.

      the move towards fascism is gaining ground in many places right now,

      That’s what I’m seeing too. There have been some regressions in Europe too, mostly the old Eastern block, but also Italy and Netherlands. Netherlands is very disappointing IMO, because it’s a country that in many ways is like Denmark.

      I hope Denmark will be able to maintain their social democracy and show that fascism is not the way.

      Yes I sure hope so too, it’s funny that we are among the countries in Europe with the least amount of problems from fascism and Nazism in particular, probably more because rather than despite the Nazi party is actually legal here. That makes it easy for media to point out how stupid they are, and it makes it easy for security services to keep an eye on them.

      Unfortunately, according to Marxist theory, social democracy will inevitably devolve back into straight capitalism, or worse. I hope Denmark can prove it wrong.

      Funny story, my history teacher in the 70’s claimed that the reason Communist countries weren’t more aggressive towards capitalism, was that they expected capitalism to fail soon by itself.
      Well I guess they didn’t account for the strength of democracy, which unfortunately isn’t as strong in USA and UK as it is in Europe.
      Capitalism has reigned the west for 2000+ years where the Romans invented banks, saying that it will fail now for some reason, does not agree with the experience we have from history. The experience we have with Communism on the other hand is way worse. Maybe China has a model that can last IDK, but in general by Marxist theory, it simply doesn’t work, and neither do his predictions about capitalism. He was right on one point though, and that was that the exploitation of ordinary workers including child labor needed to be fixed. His way of doing that however was not it.

      In your defense, our social democrats are not what they used to be, they are more center now than left wing in the current government, but they’ve also lost a lot of support on that. Unfortunately that support has spread to both sides for some reason. Denmark is not as left leaning as I would like, and I shudder at the thought that most places are actually worse. 😱

      • Refurbished Refurbisher@lemmy.sdf.org
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        9 months ago

        The experience the world has had with communism is generally due to the centralization of power. Marx advocated for a stateless society, which, while it is something that I don’t fully understand, I think that it gets closer to a true democracy than a centralized government.

        • Buffalox@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          I applaud Marx for trying to do something in a constructive way against the indecency of hard Capitalism. But maybe the reason you don’t understand how to do Marxism without ending up with totalitarian communism, is because his idea that the state would wither away with Marxism because it is unneeded is fundamentally flawed.
          I think that to have a good well functioning society, it needs to be strong. to be strong it needs to be well defined and organized. The idea that we can have a nice society without rules the majority agree on is ridiculous. The best way to have rules that are mostly accepted, is with democracy. Unless it’s an extreme religious country, where they will only accept religious doctrine.
          As you have probably heard before, democracy isn’t perfect, but it’s the least bad option we have. With social democracy we control capitalism to not be (as) exploitive, and we combine the best we have: The humanity of socialism and democracy with the economic efficiency of capitalism controlled to avoid harm.
          I don’t think you can create an economic model that won’t end up being exploitive if it’s not strictly controlled by regulation and an efficient government to enforce it.

          • Refurbished Refurbisher@lemmy.sdf.org
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            9 months ago

            So actually what we, as a society, have, is not considered a democracy, but instead is a constitutional republic (although some countries don’t have constitutions). Besides that, we have essentially dictatorships, or in-between states. We do not have any direct democracies, which I think could be a good compromise between a stateless society and a centralized society. Here’s my idea for how a modern, direct democratic society could run:

            We have the internet and technologies like blockchain that can securely and verifiably store data that we could use as a voting system with fast elections. I know blockchain is kind of a toxic term with all of the scams that have been happening, but what I’m describing has nothing to do with anything that has financial value, and cannot be transfered/sold/exchanged between people.

            1. Each “wallet” will expire after an election.
            2. Each “wallet” is assigned via government ID number; each “wallet” is given a certain number of vote counts, but in different tokens (one for each vote). One person gets only one “wallet”.
            3. “Crypto-votes” can only be transferred to one “wallet” address (owned by the government doing the election).
            4. The option to vote in person will still exist.
            5. The sender will always remain private, due to the need for anonymous voting (this can be done the same way Monero hides transactions, which is via ring signatures), but the sendee must be public, so that if there’s an exploit that allows sending votes to another “wallet” or double voting, that can be traced on the public blockchain, along with being able to trust the voting system due to being able to count the vote yourself.
            6. The voting system must be entirely open source and licensed to be able to publicly audit and modify the code, so that improvements could be made by whoever can.
            7. The government receiving “wallet” will be publically available to look at in the blockchain.
            8. Each government will have their own blockchain (kind of obvious, but thought I’d state it anyway)
            9. Some kind of ranked voting, STAR, or whatever the most mathematically proven voting system is.
            10. I like how the US has a constitution that is amendable, but is difficult to change. The Bill of Rights, for example, gives people rights that cannot be taken away, even by passed laws that attempt to override it. Of course, right now, that requires a supreme court, and historically supreme courts with power to rule things unconstitutional have used that power to be oligarchs. I’m not too sure how to fix this issue.
            11. There is also the issue of voter fatigue, which is where the idea for a republic came from to begin with. I personally think that it’s worth the tradeoff to have the people have more direct power. Not everyone is going to vote all the time, but people who want their voices heard can have themselves heard. There will also be the option to abstain from votes.
            12. We also need to find a way to solve the energy consumption issue with crypto. There have been other proofing methods introduced, such as using disk storage space instead of computationally intensive reverse-hashing workloads, like with Chia, using what they call Proof of Space Time.
            13. If the internet/electricity/whatever fails, there will be a paper fallback with copies of the ballots available upon request (copies could be made with a battery powered printer and computer if needed). Each ballot will be scanned into the same battery powered computer upon casting. Each ballot will be both counted by a computer and by a human/team of humans.

            This could essentially replace the Parliamentary system, or the US Congressional system, which giving people more direct power over their government.

            There would still be a need for an executive branch (in US terminology), where there’s a state leader, along with their cabinet (again, US terms) of agency leaders, all individually voted for. I believe this would provide the centralized “power” that you described.

            Also on the economic model that doesn’t allow for exploitation, I like Richard Wolff’s idea of forcing all businesses (above, say 100 employees) to be worker-owned co-ops. In Prof. Wolff’s terms, it will bring democracy to the workplace.